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Will County Gazette

Tuesday, November 5, 2024

Will County Public Health & Safety Committee met April 3

Meetingroom01

Will County Public Health & Safety Committee met April 3.

Here is the minutes provided by the committee:

I. CALL TO ORDER / ROLL CALL

Chair Laurie Summers called the meeting to order at 9:30 AM

Attendee Name

Title

 Status

Laurie Summers

Chair

Present

Beth Rice

Vice Chair

Present

Mark Ferry

Member

Present

Donald Gould

Member

Present

Amanda Koch

Member

Present

Meta Mueller

Member

Present

Annette Parker

Member

Present

Also Present from the State's Attorneys Office: Mr. Lipetz

II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG

Ms. Mueller led the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.

III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES

1. WC Public Health & Safety Committee - Regular Meeting - Mar 6, 2019 10:30 AM

RESULT: APPROVED [UNANIMOUS]

MOVER: Meta Mueller, Member

SECONDER: Mark Ferry, Member

AYES: Summers, Rice, Ferry, Gould, Koch, Mueller, Parker

IV. MISCELLANEOUS REPORTS

1. Sunny Hill Nursing Home Updates - February 2019

(Sunny Hill Nursing Home Updates - February 2019)

2. Approved BOH Minutes 2-20-19

(Susan Olenek)

V. OLD BUSINESS

1. Monthly Update from Sunny Hill Nursing Home

(Becky Haldorson)

2. Monthly Update from Will County Health Dept.

(Sue Olenek)

Ms. Olenek said I want to remind everyone that this is National Public Health Week so we have some things going on at the Health Department and the Community Health Center. The first week of April has always been Public Health Week. I just wanted to make sure that all of you have had an opportunity to view the video that I sent. That was done by our teen pregnancy prevention program staff. Back in 2016 we received a grant for addressing the high incidence of teen pregnancy in Bolingbrook. As a result of our efforts in that area, the teen pregnancy rate decreased 52%. It was a very effective program; honestly I don’t know why the State doesn’t look at it and make it a model program across the State. I also brought a resource guide that one of our other programs put together; this is a resource guide for adolescents. Adolescents go all the way up until 20 years old. There is all types of information in here about anyone who is a teenager; anyone up to age 20. We have everything in here from food access and nutrition, mental health services, Safe Passage Program, oral health and violence prevention. We got those through a grant and we had 4,000 of them printed. If you have anybody who wants some resource guides and has the ability to get those to the right people, we will be happy to facilitate that. This month our annual report will be coming out so please look for that. We will send out an electronic copy and paper copies to the County Board as well. If you have any questions or there is anything you would like me to talk about I can do that. For those of you who are new County Board Members it is a good opportunity to look at all of the different programs that we have. This document will help you do that.

Ms. Summers asked how the new building is coming.

Ms. Olenek said they are now building the two stairwells and the elevator shaft. If you go on our website you can look at the camera that takes a picture of it every 15 minutes, you can actually see the progress. Our big discussion is the data room and making sure that we have a computer system and everything operational when we need to move in. We are still on target, it should all be completed by December of 2020.

Handout from WCHD at Committee

(Handout)

3. Opioid Update

(Dr. Kathleen Burke)

This item was 3rd on the Agenda, but discussed 1st.

Dr. Burke said I have Lloyd Cohagen here today and he is interested in opening recovery homes in Will County. We have some recovery homes, Stepping Stones provides a few. We are trying to source all of the models because they are a hard group to find. The purpose of a recovery home is to help people continue their long term recovery for a period of time until they can get back on their feet. The National Alliance of Recovery Residents (NARR) which is a set of standards that are considered the Joint Commissions of recovery homes. They define recovery housing as safe healthy and substance free living environments, which support individuals in recovery from addiction. They are all centered on peer support and a connection to services that promote long term recovery. The recovery from addiction and alcohol is defined as a dynamic change process thru which individuals improve their health and wellness, live self-directed lives and strive to reach their full potential. Striving to reach their full potential is what we are all about. It is more than being substance free. It’s launching a life where you are able to obtain housing, obtain work, maintain a living and strive from that point on. It is important that we launch people, because when they are in the midst of their addiction those are the things that they lose. They lose their housing they lose their livelihood and sometimes they lose their family. It’s important that they don’t go back to the same environment in which they started their addiction. It’s important that they are surrounded by people who are doing the same thing that they are doing, trying to live a substance free live. They are providing each other a support system for that. At the May 3rd Hero’s Helps Conference this year we are going to be featuring recovery homes. For purposes of this meeting today I just wanted to introduce to you what recovery homes are in regards to substance use, how important it is as we move through creating a complete continuum of care in Will County for people suffering from a substance use disorder. After our last meeting where we talked about housing for veterans and for the homeless it all ties together.

IV. NEW BUSINESS

1. Disc Re: Recovery Housing

(Lloyd Cohagen)

This item was 1st on the Agenda but was discussed 3rd.

Ms. Summers said some of the County Board Members did attend the forum that was held at Silver Cross Hospital, it was very successful. They will be taking it on the road and moving around the County. This is another thing that is going to continue with the Opioid and Mental Health issues; and we are all very excited about it.

Dr. Burke added what was even more exciting was that Senator Hastings announced they are going for a certificate of need for an Adolescent Behavioral Hospital. We need that desperately in the community. We are excited that he represents that.

Mr. Cohagen said I am the president at Restoring Lives Overcoming Addictions, we like to call it reload because we are reloading people’s lives with positive affirmations. We’ve been around for 10+ years, I took over as President about 2 years ago to help expand the rate of recovery homes in the State of Illinois. One area that we are looking at is Joliet. I work a lot with the hospitals in the area. I refer over to Stepping Stones because I help people in the recovery community find treatment. When they are coming out of treatment I help them find housing, programs outside of that I help them find jobs. When I took over this roIe looked at areas of need where people are requesting houses. They are saying I need a place to live in this community. We have those but we don’t have enough, the waiting list in any given county is about 70+ people that are requesting these homes. The main reason is we are a product of our environment. These individuals don’t want to go back to the environment they came from because that is the definition of insanity; to do the same thing over and over and expect a different outcome. These people are actually reaching out and asking for help. We would like to open a couple of recovery homes to help the population in Will County. At Restoring Lives we don’t just offer a safe place to live, but we go further and help them with job training with education. These are all prerequisites of living in the home, you have to have at least a GED and we help them get that. We have a linkage agreement with Indiana University to get their high school diploma on line. We help them with job training, working in the trades, and work in advertising or even the grocery store. Whatever we can do to make them a contributing member of society which gives them self-worth. When we build up their self- esteem we find that the relapse rates go down. When we don’t have relapses that doesn’t pull on the resources of your community. It also helps with crime in the community, homelessness; we see this in all different aspects. We give them coaching we give them counseling we teach them how to cook healthy meals and how to shop. We give them the things that a lot of them are missing. We give them financial education, how to spend and invest their money. By doing this we are seeing the relapse rates decrease within these homes. We don’t do sober living, we actually do recovery homes which are licensed by the State. They are over seen by the State, so we have to have architects come in and make sure the homes are livable and accessible, that there is an evacuation plan in case of a fire. It’s an extensive process. There has to be someone in the home who is employed by our nonprofit, they are called house managers. When we see them in the community it helps actually build up the communities that they are there because they are contributing back to the communities themselves. We would like to put some of these homes in Will County, we know the need is there. I have gotten phone calls this week from people coming out of treatment and they have nowhere to go; whether they be homeless or they go back into these environments where they were before. As you know you are who you assimilate with.

Mrs. Dollinger asked how many residents you would have in a home.

Mr. Cohagen replied the great thing we can do with the State is we can actually rent homes. Which cuts our cost down hundreds of thousands of dollars. They will also license rental properties, I have worked along with the State to ensure that happens as long as the landlord allows it.

Mrs. Dollinger said I know around Saint Joes they are working on the TIF District, my concern with that area that it is becoming more industrial, so it would be great if you could keep some of the homes and work in that area because it is a great space to work with that. The Workforce Investment Board, I know you said that you work with Purdue but Workforce Investment Board does a lot of work reengaging people getting their GED’s. If you are bringing something into Joliet I would like to see us work with Joliet Junior College and Workforce Investment Board keeping those connections here more local with what we are doing to build people up.

Mr. Cohagen said we have actually spoke about that. Your County is a bit different than most here in Illinois. You actually have these programs in place already, most counties don’t. I don’t think they are looking at that and seeing how to build up their own community.

Dr. Burke added I have already talked to the Workforce Board because we are looking for a grant to do just that. It is a separate RFP that is out and we have submitted a grant request, didn’t get it; now there is a second grant request and we are hoping that we get it this time. It is exactly for that, it’s for recovery coaching, training and workforce development, it is for the whole thing.

Ms. Berkowicz asked within the home how many people do you have and what the age ranges are.

Mr. Cohagen said I want single to double occupancy, the purpose to that is longevity. We were all young once and it was okay to have a roommate. As we get older we want our privacy. In smaller homes and smaller rooms we want to do one individual per room. In larger rooms we will do two, but no more than that. As far as the age we want to put like-minded people together. Females and Males are definitely separated. I would like to see older gentleman with older gentlemen, older women with older women. We are looking at women with children would have their own home, so they are all together in their own place. Women with domestic violence would be in their own private home; because with that we can’t publicize any of the addresses that we use because of Domestic Violence cases. But on the other side of that I see the younger people actually gain insight from being with elders. As long as they are okay with it I would like to see more mentorship, because that is the purpose of the program. We are going to listen to the individuals and as long as they are okay with it, because they have a voice in our home.

Ms. Ventura said is there ongoing therapy or coping mechanisms. As to the point of single occupancy I think that builds confidence that they can do it on their own. Which is something that is really important that is something that you don’t always get. Are they still going to get treatment somewhere else at a different program, or do you offer the programs?

Mr. Cohagen said as part of licensing with the State they have to be in a program outside of that. Whether it be an AA Meeting or Smart Recovery as they step down through the process as they come out of a residential setting they will be at an intensive outpatient down to an outpatient down to counseling. We have staff that are CADC’s, LSW’s that are at every level of treatment that are on call all of the time. Also once per week they get a meeting with those individuals. We encourage them to find those resources outside and continue through the counseling sessions. We also allow individuals to be on a Medication Assisted Treatment Program (MAT) which would be a Soboxin, Vivitrol or Methadon. The reason being it is going to cut the relapse immediately 50%; along with that goes the counseling pieces so that they can be heard. A lot of times there is mental illness that might be there as well as anxiety and stress. We want them to have an outlet for that. Those are predetermined times of the day, we will fit them around their schedules. They have to attend these meetings, they have a house meeting ever Sunday for peer recovery. That is where they talk amongst themselves and work out any issues that will happen within a home like this. The counseling will be 4 days a week to start out within the home.

Ms. Berkowicz asked what your requirements within the municipalities are.

Mr. Cohagen replied that every County and City are different. It also depends on the amount of individuals that you have within the home. Kane County is up to 8 individuals within a home, McHenry is now 6. Anything over that would be licensed as a group home. There is also licensing on the County and City level as well. It is regulated which is great, which leads to no overcrowding. There is some type of license or registration at least.

Dr. Burke added that with Drug Court their homes are kept to a low number, because once you go above that number it incorporates a whole different level of requirements. You also want to be in a neighborhood. Also if the home is too crowded the neighborhood is not going to like it at all. We want it to be a home.

Ms. Rice said I have heard about neighborhoods being fearful of a recovery home. Does your company have a plan to develop community buy in.

Mr. Cohagen said the way that I look at areas is I look for areas that need to be built up. That need someone to come in and not just help the housing but the community as well. We see that with underserved areas, we get less kick back from that in the communities. Because we are going to be putting people in the community that are going to become contributing members of the community. These are highly monitored homes, there are curfews and alarm systems. We also have someone who physically lives within the home that watches over everyone. I like to go to any meeting that involve the community we let them know that we are opening a home, because I expect that to happen and I want to get that right out in the open. I give them the stats. There is a stigma behind it most certainly, we are fighting to get past that. If we place the houses strategically in neighborhoods that I think needs to be there to help build up the community. I want the community to be involved as well. I also want to look at the communities that need more employment, they need more people there.

Ms. Rice asked how the residents pay for it.

Mr. Cohagen said with recovery homes licensed by the State, they are State funded. Everyone has to pay rent, because if they live off of the state they are not going to get to the point we want them to be which is self-sufficient.

Ms. Rice asked if there rent is on a sliding scale.

Mr. Cohagen replied we see it going from $400 per month to $1000 per month depending on the location and size. If it is single occupancy we see it run $800 to $1000 per month. They are not just paying for the rent they are also paying for the services that they getting. Being a recovery home we can get a lot of grants from the state and local as well. We want them to pay rent not for a profit but because they are learning to be financially stable. That way we can add in things like trips and nights out at the movies, that way we can provide more services.

Dr. Burke said the first month is the toughest because they are transitioning and they may not have any income yet. One of the things we look to are grant support for that particular month. We want to work with each individual. It is not meant to be exclusive where your parents can’t come up with the $400 or $500 a month rent then you can’t come into the community. That I don’t want to see happen. We want them to become independent and not rely on their family or others for support.

Mr. Cohagen said they need an address to get a job, once we provide that transition period then we get them back to looking for that job.

Ms. Ventura asked in the long and short term how many homes do you expect to put into Will County, and what is the suspected cost to that. Do you already have some locations picked out in Will County?

Mr. Cohagen said I am not sure of the numbers for the waiting list in Will County, but I am confident that we could open three houses and open them immediately. I have houses that I would like to rent already, I would like to open three but we will start with one. The ideal situation would be to have two. A transition home where they would come in to and we would provide food, rent utilities and clothing there would be no cost to the individual. We would help them to get a resume and a job and get them through Workforce and hoping that would get them through that transition period, which would be 30 to 45 days. Then there would be phase II, the house where they would be paying their own way and buying their own food. We will need two houses at a minimum, no more than 6 people per house. If it is a smaller home it could be 3 to 4 people. The cost are right around $6,800 per month, the first month would be more because we have to furnish the house, those little things add up. I’ve given Dr. Burke the budget and we have run it pretty tight. There’s a little bit of money in it for case management and if we can use the services of the County that you already have in place that helps cut the cost down.

Dr. Burke said the other part is we are working with Governors State University with recovery coaching, and those are the folks that the State is going to start paying. The more reimbursable folks we can work with in the unit the better it is. This is all new because the State never reimbursed anything for housing and they recognize it.

Ms. Rice asked have you spoke to Corner Stone Services because they service people with disabilities but they also assist people in recovery.

Dr. Burke said Corner Stone primarily does independent living; they do group homes but most of theirs is to get people independent then they have caseworkers that work with them on an individual basis. Because they have both mental illness and substance use. On our MAP Committee we have had those conversations. It is a little different for recovery living because we don’t want them independent yet. We don’t want them out on their own otherwise they could go off and find an apartment on their own and they don’t have support. Its control, support and comradery all working together for the same goal. Sometimes these folks are in their 20’s and early 30’s socially they don’t know what to do.

Mr. Cohagen said they are asking for it, that is why there is a waiting list. They could go and live by themselves but they have tried that and it didn’t work. They know that they need someone to help them do it. We see a lot of older individuals that maybe have an alcohol problem and they are in a divorce, and now they have nowhere to go.

Mr. Pullman asked if they cost was $6,800 per month per house. That’s not owning the house.

Mr. Cohagen said we are looking at doing rentals now. I’m not going to turn down owning a house but we would have to ask for a lot more money, it’s hard to come by. It is eaiser to get a lower budget, we also look at the maintenance of the house. If we own a house we also have to pay for the maintenance of the home.

Mr. Pullman asked who signs the lease.

Mr. Cohagen responded they do; the non-profit.

Dr. Burke said there are two thing going on here, one getting up and going quickly as opposed to identifying a home and fund raising to get that home. It’s really the cost; I’m not ruling out purchasing homes. Because that’s the better deal, rentals are hard if you have a landlord who wants to transition and move so the rent can be raised. That commitment long term would make me nervous from a rental agency. The best of all worlds would be if we could purchase a home. At this time we have an immediate need, we have opportunity with Mr. Cohagen looking into this. We are trying to be smart about it, short and long term.

Ms. Summers said a number of years ago there was something that was put on by state legislators and there were suggestions then that there are so many homes in foreclosure. That purchasing those homes at that time the savings was phenomenal.

Mr. Cohagen said here is my vision, to go and buy these foreclosure HUD homes that need work. We take those individuals that we have put, them through the trade schools and we have given them carpentry and electrical skills and rebuild the house ourselves while giving them employment through the nonprofit. As they do that they would now transition house A into B and they live in B while they fix C. It’s a big vision but I think it is very doable.

Ms. Summers said hopefully you are concentrating on the whole county. Because there are areas everywhere that could utilize these.

Dr. Burke said part of what needs to go with other parts of the community is transportation and services. You have to have jobs locally because they don’t have cars and they need transportation to the job. Joliet is ideal right now because it is easy and all of those things are in place.

Mr. Gould asked how many homes you operate in the state right now. Mr. Cohagen said we had three, but we are down to one right now.

Mr. Gould said your three sources of income are State funding, the residents pay rent and then grants.

Mr. Cohagen said in the past Restoring Lives ran a landscaping company and they would generate income by giving the individuals giving them employment and they did landscaping. That paid their rent and food and they got a stipend out of that for daily living.

Dr. Burke said this is a new area and there are a couple of standard folks around, Oxford Houses have been around forever. They have research behind them and how they run. They run like a commune meaning everyone has a joint voice everyone is equal. There is very little restrictions and regulations. That’s one model. My experience with folks who are first getting out of treatment is that’s not a great model. Epically with opioids because you can get them anywhere. There isn’t this big industry because there’s been no reimbursement for it. I’m not saying that Mr. Cohagen’s is the model we should all go with but I am saying here is a model that he is very interested in investing in Will County. I am really interested in having recovery homes, I wanted to have this conversation with all of you to see what you thought. To see if it is supported if not, where do we go next.

Ms. Summers said you have the support system you’re giving them the independence as well as giving them a home. I think that’s been resonating through every conversation we have had with every single person that has come in here and spoke whether it’s been from the VA including transportation which is huge in that. Our goal is to bring everyone together and get these things worked out.

Mr. Pullman said I don’t want to overcommit or brag but back in 2010 HUD gave the Country a $5,000,000 grant. It was called a National Stimulation Program and the model that we adopted put us in the third position in the County in terms of performance. That’s the bragging part and the County Board supported it very well. We purchased, rehabbed and sold 137 homes with that $5,000,000 and it generated $12.5 million of revenue for us. We would buy a house for $80,000 put $30,000 into it and sell it for cost. Take the money put it back into the kitty and do it again. If you were here three years ago, what we were missing was a not for profit that was willing to own the house. We had purchased one for Corner Stone, we wanted Catholic Charities to do it, but they had no interest in owning a house. We have the model and Bob Kalnicky from community service council in Northern Will County is running a similar program with what we call Madigan Money. It’s the penalty money that the banks got into trouble with The County got $2.5 million dollars and Mr. Kalnicky got $1,000,000. He is still working the program so I would like to have a conversation with him to see if he’s got any funds left over. He’s got the model as well as us. We could start that model up very easily. In fact we do have some residual money that is still at HUD. We know how to do that so it’s just a matter of having the agency available that’s willing to own the property. The other issue from the standpoint of rentals; we are working with the State’s Attorney’s Office and are developing a pilot program for rental assistance for Drug Court graduates. Julie McCabe-Sterr is saying that she has a lot of people in the program that are ready to graduate but can’t get out of the program because they have no place to live. We met last week with Mary Tatroe and her staff and we are coming close to a resolution to that. They also have two other problem courts that we are looking into. We are developing a model for that as well, 30% of the income comes from the client and the rest comes from the subsidy. Our lease typically is signed by the individual, but we could work on that.

Dr. Burke asked why we operate them separately, with Drug Court and recovery homes. They are all folks that are in recovery. I wish they could see the collaboration that could take place.

Mr. Pullman said because they are the ones who approached us.

Ms. Garlich said when you were talking about employment if you would like I could hook you up with PACE they have an employee rideshare program where they give someone a van and pay for the gas and pay for the driver to transport people to their job.

Will County Mobility Management Services - Attachment Updated (Wendie Garlich)

This item was 2nd on the Agenda but was discussed 4th.

Ms. Garlich said I am the Will County Mobility Manager of the County Executive Office. I am taking care of senior and stable transportation throughout Will County. Currently the program that I am managing is the WillRide Program. Currently the Townships involved in this Dial a Ride program are from Eastern Will County.

Ms. Garlich reviewed the attached PowerPoint presentation at this time.

Ms. Olenek said we have a couple of grants at the Community Health Center that will pay for our patients to come and get services. But sometimes the grant dollars run out and we end up footing that bill because many of our patients come in regularly or don’t have the money to pay for the trip. The Dial a Ride or any of those rides through PACE, are they on demand or is it set up ahead of time?

Ms. Garlich said there are some that are on demand. I also set up subscription trips for people that do chemotherapy, dialysis and radiation; because they are a set schedule. But if they are going to a single medical appointment they would have to call to book their trip. They can call up to seven days in advance. I deal with a lot of calls all over the County that want to join WillRide, but your township has to participate because there is a cost to the ride.

Ms. Olenek said are you saying that maybe the patients where they are coming from should first check with their township or area to see if there is a Dial a Ride there first.

Ms. Garlich said correct, also if they are a senior have them call Will County Senior Services because that is where the Joliet system calls to register for service.

Ms. Summers said we lost a hospital which was one of the primary resources for people to go to on the eastern side of the county. Now they have to travel across state lines, the other hospital was in Cook County. Hopefully with everyone working together we can get somewhere with all of this. Because transportation was another thing I kept hearing about. If they can’t get somewhere they are not going to be able to go to their jobs or do the thing they need to get done.

Ms. Cowan said it would be nice if the County was funding this.

Ms. Summers said I think that there have been things that have been checked. It’s been very cost effective for the County. We need to reach out and see if there are dollars there and start the conversation and say that we want them to start looking into it. We need to take the burden off of some of these townships.

Ms. Garlich said another point as to why I was coming to County Board, with all of this talk downstate about getting rid of townships, if that comes to fruition I don’t know what would happen to the program.

Awarding Bid for Housekeeping Supplies for Sunny Hill Nursing Home

(Rita Weiss/Kevin Lynn)

This item was 3rd on the Agenda but was discussed 1st

Ms. Weiss said the first bid we have for Sunny Nursing Home is for housekeeping basic supplies including trash can liners, facial tissue, toilet paper and some miscellaneous paper products. It is absolutely in conjunction with staff at Sunny Hill and we rely on staff to make choices from the samples that we require for the bid. We are splitting between three bidders: Central Poly with $7,824.00, Tri-K Supplies 17,170.80 and Professional Medical is $16,589.00, which Tri-K and Professional Medical are both Will County vendors, so most of the supplies are local. We are saving quite a bit by splitting it as opposed to awarding one vender the total bid. It is a much more cost effective way to do it. It is effective as of May 1, 2019 through April 30, 2020. It does include two one year renewals which we always reach out to the Sunny Hill staff to make sure they are happy with the products. Once they give us their okay we reach out to the vendor. If the vendor has included a percent of increase on their bid form we allow them to increase, but only if they had stipulated at the time of the bid. We will not allow them to raise it after that.

RESULT: MOVED FORWARD [UNANIMOUS] Next: 4/11/2019 10:00 AM

TO: Will County Executive Committee

MOVER: Meta Mueller, Member

SECONDER: Mark Ferry, Member

AYES: Summers, Rice, Ferry, Gould, Koch, Mueller, Parker

4. Awarding Bid for Dietary & Nursing Products for Sunny Hill Nursing Home

(Rita Weiss/Kevin Lynn)

This item was 4th on the Agenda, but was discussed 2nd.

Ms. Wiess said this bid is for dietary and nursing products. This one is an approximate total for the first year of $46,174.50 and we are asking for a split between two vendors Medline Industries for $3,134.55 and Gordon Food Service for $43,038.95; this is the biggest vendor that we purchase the majority of the items from.

RESULT: MOVED FORWARD [UNANIMOUS] Next: 4/11/2019 10:00 AM

TO: Will County Executive Committee

MOVER: Amanda Koch, Member

SECONDER: Annette Parker, Member

AYES: Summers, Rice, Ferry, Gould, Koch, Mueller, Parker

VII. PUBLIC COMMENT

VIII. CHAIRMAN'S REPORT / ANNOUNCEMENTS

IX. EXECUTIVE SESSION

X. ADJOURNMENT

1. Motion to Adjourn at 10:55 AM

RESULT: APPROVED [UNANIMOUS]

MOVER: Amanda Koch, Member

SECONDER: Mark Ferry, Member

AYES: Summers, Rice, Ferry, Gould, Koch, Mueller, Parker

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